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Welcome to Formosa Files. I'm Eryk Michael Smith with a slight cold.

And I'm John Ross.   Without a cold. But with a nasal New Zealand   Australian accent. All right.   Well, today we're going to do something a little different.   Different. I hope it's not going to get   weird.

No, no, don't worry.   I thought we'd look at a big story in the news and the   history behind the story. OK, so we're straying deep into   uncharted territory. We're exploring the 21st   century. But actually, we're taking a   rather pleasant trip. We're traveling down to the   southern tip of Taiwan. Blue skies, white sands. 

 This is Taiwan's most popular beach resort, Kenting.   And it was Taiwan's first National Park.   Indeed, that was made a National Park in 1984.   It's a lovely spot. You know, you've got beautiful   scenery, the beaches, cliffs, uplifted hills, some of them   coral hills, right? And usually you've got these   clear skies. But there is one rather strange   scene down there. You know what I'm talking about.   Yes.

The Taiwan history podcast Formosa Files is made possible through the generous sponsorship   of the Frank C Chen Foundation Formosa Files. 

OK, so if you're standing on the white sands of Nanwan Beach, South Bay Beach beachgoers are playing in the turquoise waters.   You got your women with parasols or umbrellas wading into the   shallows, some of the moms screaming at their kids not to   go too far into the water. The kids have got their   inflatable wings on. But then, OK, all of this,   right? All this beauty, water, Beachy   stuff. Then you look over in the   distance and there's two smooth Gray concrete domes, the two   reactor buildings of the Manshan Nuclear Power Station.   Yeah, Taiwan's third and last nuclear power plant.   These two reactors were commissioned in 84 and 85 and   shut down after their planned 40 years of use upon the expiration   of each reactor's license. So that was in 2024 for one of   them, and the second reactor earlier this year.  

But Eryk, this closure, the end of Taiwan's nuclear power   generation, it's not the news story we're talking about today.   Right. This news story is newer than   that. Fresh off the presses actually.   Pre News. Pre News.   Pre news yes, it hasn't actually happened yet.   This coming Saturday, August 23rd, 2025, Taiwan goes to the   polls for a referendum, The referendum question reads.   Do you agree that the Ma Anshan Nuclear Power Plant should   continue operation upon approval by the competent authority and   confirmation that there are no safety concerns?  

Eryk, you're the journalist, the news guy, and you've written   about this story. I've not really followed it, but   like I said earlier, hasn't that nuclear power plant, the the   last of Taiwan's three nuclear power plants, already been   closed down? Yes, I think the final day was   May 17th, if I. But, you know, it's a process   more than just like turning a switch.   The entire decommissioning process will take years, and   there's still the question of the radioactive waste.   But the wording continue operation.   Should that really be restart? Perhaps.   Maybe. Yeah, it's complicated.   I don't really know how you would go about doing that.   It is over 40 years old. Right.   So you've got to fix it right to make.   It you would probably need to do some things to make it up to the   referendum thing of saying safe and all of that, right?  

But there's a problem, John. We can't talk too much about the   referendum because it's illegal. So 10 days before a referendum   or an election, you can't talk about it.   So even though we've recorded this before, then we have to be   very careful about what we say because that would be   contravening Taiwanese law. So what I can tell you is that   there's some question as to whether or not it will pass,   because you need to have a certain number of voters, right?   I can also tell you that people who tend to vote for the KMT are   generally in support of reactivating or whatever you   want to call it. People who vote for the TPP   appear to be crazily in favor of it, and those who are on the   green side of the political spectrum here appear to be less   enthusiastic about it.

OK, throw our listeners a bone.   TPP. What's that?  

The Taiwan People's Party, they were the party of the former   Taipei mayor Cohenza. He's currently sitting in jail   on corruption charges. But it is the minor party in the   parliament that kind of sits with the the blue side and helps   them govern at present. OK, so we have to look here for   what we say because we might sway Taiwan's public opinion   without hugely popular for most. Of us, definitely, definitely.   So there is something called the Neighborhood Harmony Fund.   And what this is, is a certain amount of money that is given to   the people who live in the Hung Chun area or the area around the   plant. And you could say it's a form of   appeasement or if you want to be nasty, you could call it a   bribe. But it breaks down to not that   much per person. I think it's only like 150 NT   off your electric bill if you live there or something.   Nothing crazy, but there's many more millions going for, let's   see here, I'm looking at it perhaps as much as 150 million,   something like that going to community programs,   infrastructure, etcetera, etcetera.   Which I think I can safely say those things are ripe places for   corruption, often in many places, these sort of funds.   OK. Yeah.  

My concern with this referendum, with this question, is that it   might be treated as sort of a general referendum on nuclear   generation rather than specifically the merits of   restarting this particular power plant.   That's another issue. So I mentioned the people down   there getting certain compensation, but there's also   plenty of people down there who are like, hey, why only us?   Why don't you restart the number two or the number one?   Obviously they're older, so I guess if you're going to   restart, it would be the one that would be the youngest.   But you can imagine being someone in Ping Dong, southern   Ping Dong and going, hey, northern Taiwan, restart your   own plant. OK.   So, I think what we need to do to give people who aren't totally   aware of the situation here, there's been a slow growing anti   nuclear movement in Taiwan, right? 

 And we should probably give a little history as to how that   was created and how the power plants were built.   Yes, it's a story of a secret plan to build nuclear weapons,   you know. And yes, there's a later   political aspect to the nuclear story because it became an   important political 'cause as the opposition parties fought   against one party, KMT rule. For Taiwan's nuclear story, we   need to go back to the dawn of the nuclear age, August 1945,   Hiroshima and Nagasaki. It wasn't just Zhang Kai Shek.   Pretty much everybody said I want to get me one of those and   countries start working on it. The Russians or the Soviets   rather had a head start because America was filled with traitors   that were passing them information.   John Kasich didn't quite have that same assistance, but he   wants nukes. He established a department for   nuclear science. He seeks expertise and   equipment. But of course, there's this   troublesome little matter of I'm losing the Chinese Civil War, and I guess I got to flee to Taiwan.  

Yeah, it'll be his buddy Mao Zedong, who gets to see that   atomic ambition become real. China successfully tests a bomb   in 1964, and this came as it's a nasty shock to Jiang Kai Shek   and Taiwan, the president. He tried to get US support for a   nationalist Chinese military strike against China's nuclear   installations. The Roc Air Force would take out   China's nuclear capabilities. Nice.   The Americans were not especially keen on the idea.   You know, they're like, sorry, playing with World War Three,   we're kind of cool. We had to excitement 2 years ago   with the Cuban Missile Crisis. Yeah, the RFC government, that   is Taiwan's government, they want to join the nuclear club.   But you know, developing nuclear weapons will need to be done in   complete secrecy. The Americans don't want Taiwan   doing it, and China has warned Taiwan that it will not allow   it. Correct.  

Didn't China say something like red line, red line, super red   line, extra wide red line or whatever?  

Yeah, so President Chiang Kai-shek ordered a detailed plan to be   drawn up, of course a secret one.   And for this, a brilliant German born Israeli chemist, Ernst   David Bergman, was instrumental. Yes, this professor is called by   some the father of the Israeli nuclear program.   Bergman was invited to Taiwan A7 day secret visit in early 1965,   the first of many subsequent trips.   Bergman talked with Chiang Kai Shek and his son Chiang Jing Guo, who’d recently been made Minister of defence, and he'd   been put in charge of the nuke program.   And Bergman spoke with top military leaders, of course.   So Taiwan's nuke program was to be a near copy of Israel's   secret nuclear program, which to this day is unconfirmed.   Yeah, right. But as we understand it, at that   time Israel was very close to developing its first atomic   weapon. OK, so Taiwan is going to get   nuclear power facilities built strictly for peaceful purposes,   generating power, but they're also going to be used for   developing atomic weapons. So, it's a dual track civilian   military nuclear program.

First, the civilian to hide the   second. Bergman was not a nuclear   physicist, he was a chemist. So he didn't give detailed   technical assistance, but he did give this blueprint and the   motivation and the advice on procurement, how to go about   buying all the needed bits and pieces.   Chiang Kai-shek put his son, as you noted, Jung Jing Guo, in charge   of the secret program called the Shinzu Project.   Now, not all the Roc leadership supported this nuclear project.   The country's top science advisor, for example, was   against it. Yeah, within the government   support for it. Not universal.   And OK, let's be fair, opponents of the nuclear program have some   good points. Taiwan was poor, developing   nuclear weapons could be a terrible cost, the country   lacked scientific expertise and it carried a very genuine risk.   I think of a pre emptive PRC strike.  

Indeed. And, you know, this was a time   when Taiwan was poor and pretty backward.   Most people didn't have flush toilets.   So yeah, maybe get the flush toilets before you get the   nuclear power stations. And yeah, Taiwan's location is   really not that ideal for nuclear power plants.   It's densely populated. You've got tsunamis,   earthquakes. But Bergman's recommendations   were followed, and Taiwan built this two-part nuclear system.   Yes. And the Taiwanese sport power   reactors, nuclear power reactors from the US construction of   these began in 71 and we see commissioning from the late   1970s through to the mid 1980s. These power plants go into use   and 40 years later they're decommissioned.  

The third one, Ma Anshan Nuclear Power Plant, is the subject of   the upcoming referendum. When it came online, nuclear   power provided about half of Taiwan's electricity.   Yeah, that's an incredible amount.   In the mid 1980s, we have the nuclear power plants pouring out   electricity and we have the secret nuclear weapons program.   It's going well. It would get to within months of   having a bomb. But the United States had good   intelligence. The CIA had a spy, an informer   deep in the program. And in early 1988, they forced   the government to close the program down.   We're. Going to have to look into some   stories about South Africa's involvement as well.   They seem to have been attempting to aid as well.   Well, it was two ways we were helping them as well.   Proliferation. So at the time nuclear power   plants are coming under Taiwanese public pressure, the   political situation. So, we're talking in 1988.  

Still, repressive environmentalism is a good   weapon for those opposed to the government.   You could get locked up for criticizing the government,   definitely for promoting independence, but who could   complain about parents asking for clean water, air and food   for their families? Indeed, we did an episode a few   seasons back called The Lugang Rebellion about how in the mid   1980's the sleepy town of Lugang on the West Coast of central   Taiwan was the site of a battle between the environment and   development. This American petrochemical   giant, DuPont was given permission to build a plant near   Luga and the local people fought against it.   And over the next 15 months it was a campaign which would   really, you know, shake the country and it would have far   reaching consequences. And there was a big incident   which had happened recently overseas.   The Bhopal, I think it's pronounced right.   Bhopal disaster A chemical accident, December 1984 at an   American owned pesticide plant in Bhopal, central India.   Yeah, still considered the world's biggest ever, the worst   ever industrial disaster. I think over 500,000 people   around the plant were exposed to a highly toxic gas.  

More than 2000 died immediately and many more in the following   months. Even more relevant to our story,   Chernobyl, the worst nuclear accident in history that   occurred in April of 1986. So public opinion is turning and   it's going anti nuke and the newly formed DPP.   So the Democratic Progressive Party, the first official   opposition party, they're riding this anti nuke sentiment.   Yes. So the opposition to DuPont,   they were successful. The protesters forced them away.   The plant was not built in Lu Gang.   So yeah, Taiwan's environmental awareness was growing.   And this DuPont dispute showed the opposition politicians,   especially, you know, the DPP, that environmental issues were a   winning way forward for them, would become a big part of their   platform, especially the anti nuclear power position.   Yeah, the last government promised to make Taiwan nuke   free by 2025, so I guess that was a promise they delivered on.   Back in the 80s though, the 90s, there were protests against   plans for 1/4 reactor or a plant in Gong Liao on Taiwan's   northeast coast. That was a huge part of   President Chen Shui Bien's first term, as I recall.  

Yeah. So construction there began in   1999, I think, but it was halted the next year and then it   started again. I I can't remember, it was back   and forth for years. Yeah, mine Joe restarted it,   then it was Yeah, just, and then eventually mothballed.   What a waste of money. Depending on your view of   course, I would have preferred personally that you close down   the old one, maybe open a new one.   Replace it with the new one. Maybe a better idea.   And of course we can't forget that a lot of this is that   scandal involving waste over on Orchid Island.   I did some digging into this and it seems that it started in 1978   8 when the Taiwanese government said they were going to build a   cannery, a fish cannery on the island.   Haha, OK. But instead, it eventually   became a spot for storing low level waste, nuclear waste. 

 And the Tao people of the island, they're not happy about   this. When they finally figure it out.   And it slowly becomes part of the conversation in Taiwan and   people are like, that's not cool.   You send it over to. It was a public relations   disaster. It's not a good look, is it?   You have this small island with this indigenous people   previously called the Yami, now they prefer to be called the   Tau. And you're dumping nuclear   waste. You're lying about it and   putting nuclear waste on their small island.   Yeah, eventually it's acknowledged and former   President Tanguan actually went over there and apologized as I   recall. But there's still like, I think   100,000 barrels of waste stuck there, and we don't know what to   do with it. There was an idea in 1996 that   is wild. And the idea was, well, let's   pay North Korea. To take it.   Sorry, did you say North Korea? North Korea, yeah.   So I'm looking at an issue from 1997 of Physics today and it has   a great rundown of this. They're saying, OK, 100,000   barrels are on Langi and we've been looking for alternative   places but we just can't find it.   This article says the offer came from North Korea for a cash   payment. It will permanently store the   waste at existing facilities there.   So then they send a team up there.   They find this converted coal mine 110 kilometers South of   Pyongyang, 95 kilometers from the Demilitarized Zone.  

And the Taiwanese check the, you know, geology, I don't know, hydrology, whatever other words you're looking for.   And they'd say, yeah, this is a good spot.   So then on the 11th of January 1987, they announced that they   are going to send 60,000 barrels, and they have an option   of going up to 200,000. Neither side has confirmed how   much they were going to pay, but the reported fee was 1150 U.S.   dollars per barrel. My goodness.   And what a large number of barrels.   Yeah. So the problem here is Taiwan is   not officially to some people a country, right.   So you got to get permission for moving this stuff around from   the IAEA. North Korea also is not really a   country. So these two are trying to   figure out how they can get the permits for this and it's not   going well. And within a short time,   environmentalist Greenpeace, a whole bunch of these people are   up in arms over it. You need it up a spot that the   groundwater wouldn't be contaminated for 1000 years.   You need this. You need other people are going   to the Yami and asking them, do you really want to ship your   suffering to the North Korean people?   And it becomes just a hot potato.  

There are even S Koreans starting these boating drills, getting ready to block the Taiwan ships from coming into   the area. And eventually it just becomes   too, John, I know you'll love this.   Just too radioactive and nothing happens, those barrels.   Are what a wild story. Incredible.   Still sitting there, it gets even weirder.   So in I'm looking here at the type of times 2013 North Korea   has filed A transnational lawsuit against Taiwan Power   accusing the state owned utility of failing to honor a contract   to deliver nuclear waste for disposal in the communist state.   So they sued saying that we did this in 96 and you were supposed   to give us 8, almost 9 million U.S. dollars, and we extended   the contract by five years so you could figure out your   issues. And it goes on and on. 

 And at the very end, Taiwan says we didn't give them a cent   because it never really went into action.   And it's unlikely that North Korea is going to win this   lawsuit anytime soon, I would argue.   Wow, quite a ride. Yeah.   So back to that plant in Guang Liao, 99 began, but then, as we   said, halted and then started, halted, halted.   But the timing of those years, that decade, was not good   specifically for one reason. And why is that?   Fukushima, AH. OK. 2011 You see this meltdown   live on television, which does not help the cause of those in   favor of nuke power. Or tidal wave power.   OK, let's get it that way. It's ironic in a way that we're   recording this today on a typhoon holiday.  

I don't know if that's the term to use, but we have the day off   here in the South. I was talking to a friend the   other day, an energy person. He's saying that typhoons are   actually super useful for Taiwan's energy generation   because at present, roughly 85, maybe you could say percent is   imported, so coal or LPG. But a typhoon?   It gives us tons of water for hydropower.   We don't have much hydropower, do we?   Some I guess is better than none.   Okay. And a whole bunch of people in   the South turn off their air conditioners because they don't   need them at the time, which is also useful.   Okay. So this upcoming referendum is   not the first one we've had. We've had several.   I don't really follow politics that much.   I do remember some referendums about getting a casino on   Penghu, the islands. The island of failed twice,   right? And the second time, and there   was a larger no vote than the first time around.   But if we're going to stick to this topic, my memory is that in   2021 there was one that was a no vote, then there was another one   a little while a few years later, and that one didn't pass   because of not having the the right amount of.   OK, so there are referendums which are done for local issues.  

The one that's coming up this Saturday is a national   referendum, right? Those ones, I believe also were   national ones. Like the question was should we   restart Gong Liao, for example. So it's been put to the people,   which I question. It's an extremely important   thing, energy security. I think we have several months   of coal and we would not be in a good position if China decided   to put a bunch of ships around us.   So some would argue that having these atomic plants are useful   and necessary. I'm not going to say an opinion   either way, but I wonder if it's something you would put to the   public. Isn't this supposed to be   decided by people who know better than you and I or the   average Joe or “Joeess”? Yeah, The merits of continuing   that power plant down in Kenting, very technical.   How much is it going to cost? What's the condition of the   equipment? You just can't.   You can't seriously make an informed decision on that, can   you? So the DPP government has   fulfilled its commitment and the voters did vote them in knowing   that, but now the parliament is run by the other side and they   are putting this to the people again.   So you know, democracy, it's one way of looking at it humbly.   I'm just thinking about how much it was reported that Taiwan was   going to pay per barrel to store the.   Waste in North. Korea.   We have a couple of plots of unused farmland up here.   So you're you're offering your Jai farm as a site to alleviate   the towel? Absolutely yes you can do.   The Math 200,000 * 1150 U.S. dollars.   Okay, doesn't Orchid Island get hit by typhoons every year?   Right now, really badly, they don't have power.  

As we record this. Yes, correct.   Several hundred homes do not have power.   It was a crappy thing to do to them, it really.   Was it was, Yeah, yeah. I remember seeing video news of   some of the Islanders dressed up in their very distinctive   traditional costumes up in Taipei, you know, protesting.   Understandable. Yep, I've.   Always joked that maybe it should be over on one of those   islands in Jinmen. Like, right, The one that's   closest to the border, we're with China.   Evil, but yes, that would work, wouldn't it?   Some Little Rock that we're just gonna rock this year.   Kilometers. Off the Chinese coast, if they   if they hit it, they get taken out by radiation.   The things I probably shouldn't say out loud in any way.   No, no. We'll edit that out.   Can we talk about their requirements for the the   percentage of the turn out or? It would be safer if people who   are interested just go look up on Wikipedia, but people will   recall that not very long ago we had a recall vote and none of   those were successful, mostly because of not making the   threshold right of required votes for most elections.  

As I understand it, you have to go back to your almost, it's the   Joseph and Mary back to the town or village where you were born   and there do your referendum. So it's a bit of a mop on for   people who are, you know, registered in Ping Dong but   working in Taipei. Yes, we get an influx of   returning residents when there's a vote like this.   They come back to vote, which is quite a commitment, isn't it?  

It is, yeah. And it's not like your employer   necessarily gives you some stipend or the government and   pays for your transport or something.   You, you gotta do it. And the free lunch box or the   cap pen tissue paper doesn't really cover the expense of   coming back. A lunch box might actually be   bribery. That's too much.   It's over there. Was it 50 NT threshold or   something? 30 at this point, I think.   Oh, so bad, yeah. All right, well, you can go back   and check out our other episodes about the Lugong Rebellion.   We also have nukes versus the CIA.   That's right. And we've got an episode on   Typhoons. We have a treasure of riches, quite a quite a lot of episodes now.  

How many have we got? We have somewhere around 275, a   total of 282, but some of them are repeats so a lot.   OK, it's enough to train AI to make more Formosa files.   Emphasize that we can take a break.   Yeah, well, thanks for listening.   I'm Eryk Michael Smith. I'm John Ross.   Bye.